Peter Hillary's father, Sir Edmund Hillary, was the first person to climb Mt. Everest. Mark Armstrong's father, Neil Armstrong, was the first person to walk on the moon. Now, the two sons of iconic explorers are going on an adventure together to the North Pole. A new film documents this journey, and a parallel journey their fathers took together in 1985. The working title of the documentary is North Pole '85, and was produced by an Icelandic film crew.
Send us your thoughts at lookingup@wvxu.org or post them on social media using #lookinguppodcast
Additional Resources:
- Armstrong-Hillary North Pole ’85 Expedition Documentary
- As Earth's atmosphere and ocean warm, seasonal melting of sea ice increases.
- Watching Your Dad Land on the Moon (with Mark Armstrong)
- Hunting Meteorites in Antarctica (with Scott VanBommel)
Episode Transcript:
Looking Up is transcribed using a combination of AI speech recognition and human editors. It may contain errors. Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print. This transcript may include additional material from the conversation, not featured in the audio.
Dean Regas: Now let me start off by saying this was a while ago. Years ago.
I drove up to the gate at Baxter State Park in Maine on a miserable, cold, rainy day. My goal was to climb Mount Katahdin, the highest peak in the state and the fabled beginning of the Appalachian Trail. I’m talking 5,269 feet above sea level.
So, I asked the ranger at the gate how the hiking looked. She said, “We’re strongly recommending that people don’t climb Katahdin today because the conditions are pretty rough. Windy. Rainy. Cold. It’s quite dangerous, actually.”
“Uh Huh,” I said. “Yep, yep. Thank you,” I said.
I know I heard those words. I know I processed those words. But I also knew that I had prepared for this hike and that this was my only day to do it. So ... up I went ...
Why do people want to endure hardship? Why do they explore? Also, once they begin, why can’t they stop exploring?
From the studios of Cincinnati Public Radio, I’m your host, Dean Regas, and this is Looking Up!
The show that takes you deep into the cosmos, or just to the telescope in your backyard, to learn more about what makes this amazing universe of ours so great.
My guests today are sons of the ultimate adventurers (and also adventurers in their own right): Mark Armstrong (son of Neil Armstrong, one of the first people on the Moon) and Peter Hillary (son of Edmund Hillary, one of the first people to climb Mount Everest).
Now I’m definitely not comparing myself to real mountain climbers, real adventurers, and definitely not to astronauts. But I want to delve into those brief moments, maybe you’ve had these too, where you have a goal and cannot let it go. In some ways, it’s a good characteristic to have, right? But in others, like climbing Mount Katahdin that rainy spring day ...
In short, I made it back, obviously, but it was truly miserable. My gear was not adequate, I was not in good enough shape, and even the views were blocked by clouds, so I didn’t really see anything. I made it to the top after hours of slogging, and there I surveyed what I worked for: grayness, wind, desolation.
So, on the way down, I remember sitting under a tree gnawing on a damp granola bar or something like that, thinking, “You know what, I might not make it back down.” But then I got up and started marching. I don’t remember much about that time, after the granola bar. I don’t even remember making it to the parking lot, getting in my car, and driving away from the park. But, I did it. But was it worth it?
I don’t know, some people say these are the kind of experiences that test you, that prove who you really are. I don’t know, maybe. Did I learn something about myself?
And that’s probably why I don’t have the right stuff for space travel. Or definitely not for climbing Mount Everest. Maybe my guests can share some insights into driven, motivated explorers, the ultimate explorers of Earth and space.
Peter Hillary: My name is Peter Hillary. I’m a mountaineer. I’ve been on more than 50 expeditions around the world. My father was Sir Edmund Hillary, and he made the first ascent of Mount Everest with his climbing partner, Tenzing Norgay. And, my father and I joined Neil Armstrong 40 years ago on an amazing aviation expedition to the North Pole.
Mark Armstrong: My name is Mark Armstrong. I’m a musician and a software engineer. And, my father was Neil Armstrong. He was an astronaut and an aviator, and he went with his friend Sir Edmund Hillary to the North Pole in 1985. And of course, with Peter as well.
Dean Regas: Mark, first off, where are you right now? And what are your impressions of what you’re seeing?
Mark Armstrong: So, we are currently in the archipelago of Svalbard, having transited to the North Pole and returned. We’ve had an amazing trip. We’ve seen lots of wildlife, polar bears and walruses and seals and a number of Arctic birds, and just really had a wonderful time transiting through the sea ice on an amazing ship, with scientists and expedition leaders educating us about where we are, what we’re seeing, and how the planet is changing.
Dean Regas: Now, Peter, this is your second time visiting the North Pole, correct?
Peter Hillary: Yes, it is my second trip to the North Pole.
Dean Regas: And the first one was 40 years ago when you accompanied your father, Edmund Hillary, as well as Mark’s dad, Neil Armstrong. Tell me about that journey.
Peter Hillary: Well, it was an extraordinary opportunity to share an aviation adventure with two of the great icons of exploration of the 20th century. The great thing about an expedition, of course, is that you really get to spend time with these people. There are great conversations while you are awaiting the weather, and then you share the amazing experience of landing these little ski-equipped aircraft at the geographic North Pole, the top of our planet. So, a really extraordinary opportunity to go on an expedition with remarkable people.
Dean Regas: And so when you landed at the North Pole, you’re not on land, you’re just kind of on ice?
Peter Hillary: Yeah, that’s absolutely right. When you land at the North Pole, you’re on a thin veneer of ice about six feet thick, maybe a little thicker. But beneath that is 14,000 feet of ocean. So you’re really just up on the crust. And flying in small planes means you’ve got to make that decision: Is the ice thick enough and strong enough to land a plane on? You’ve got to do it remotely, as you look down at the ice, and then you come down and commit yourself. And I can tell you, this was on our minds, because just two years before, a small aircraft attempting this broke through. Everyone managed to get out, but that little airplane is now at the bottom of the Arctic Ocean.
Dean Regas: Oh my gosh. And from what I hear, you encountered some unexpected problems of your own getting back from the North Pole.
Peter Hillary: Well, we had quite an adventure getting back. With the small planes, we had to stop and refuel at a little research base also floating on the sea ice up there and then get back to Ellesmere Island. But we had delays with weather, and these are obviously issues that you really don’t have to the same degree when you’re on a big icebreaker as we are today. They’re able to continue navigating through the ice, following leads. And, whether the weather is good or bad, they can just continue. In fact, when we got to the North Pole on the icebreaker, there were flurries of snow, it was almost rain at times. It was extraordinary when we actually got to that amazing point, 90 degrees north, the rotation point of our planet.
Mark Armstrong: It’s great, Dean, because you can stand in that spot, and you’re in every time zone all at the same time.
Dean Regas: Whoa. Timeless and almost placeless. Because it’s not like there are landmarks around there, everything looks the same. And so, did the navigator tell you exactly where the spot is?
Mark Armstrong: It was quite foggy at the North Pole, so we couldn’t see any stars, there was no way we could do any celestial navigation. But yeah, we were able to rely on Starlink technology, which was just implemented a few years ago and has really been a tremendous help for any kind of Arctic navigation.
Dean Regas: Well, I want to go back to that journey in 1985. Peter, you have your dad’s sense of kind of underselling the drama, because it sounded like you all were stuck, like you were stuck for a couple of days because of a whiteout.
And okay, this is the way I read it, it’s you, Edmund Hillary, and Neil Armstrong stuck in a hut. It sounds like a sci-fi plot for a few days. So, what did you observe being in that company of those two great explorers? Was there anything that kind of surprised you from that time, spending time with your dad and with Neil?
Peter Hillary: Well, look, that’s right. I mean, we were stuck in a little hut. It was at 82 degrees north, up there on the shores of Lake Hazen in northern Ellesmere Island. The weather was bad, and we had several days in that hut, and really, it was one of the highlights for the very reasons you outlined, because you’re stuck in a little mountain hut up there in the Arctic with the first man to walk on the Moon and the first guy to climb Mount Everest, and a group of other adventurous souls. So, we just told stories. We drank cups of tea, and we listened to incredible testimonies from two of the greats of exploration.
And I must admit, to hear Neil talking about the North Pole, the expedition to the Moon, and navigating down to the surface, and then all of his research into early aviation and other expeditions up to the North Pole, it was absolutely riveting. Likewise, my father chipped in with stories of his expeditions to the summit of Everest for the first time in ’53, and also, he became the first person to drive vehicles across Antarctica to reach the South Pole in 1957–58. So, there were amazing stories being told by the people who actually did it, while we had a number of days of adventure up there in the high Arctic waiting for the weather to improve.
Dean Regas: Well, Mark, being on an icebreaker for a few weeks with Peter, I’m sure you all have swapped plenty of stories. What have you learned about your dad from Peter and his journey to the Arctic in 1985?
Mark Armstrong: As we’ve been taking this journey to and from the North Pole, Peter and I have I think been surprised and very much delighted by the parallels of our upbringing and the parallels in our families, the issues we faced as we grew up with fathers who had accomplished things that were remarkable for their time. Unlike my father, Peter and Tenzing had a very small group of people that were helping them achieve this amazing goal of theirs. My father had the good fortune of 400,000 people. They were all working overtime to make sure his mission was successful. So, there are differences, but there are a lot more similarities than differences.
Dean Regas: And you’re both now participating in a documentary. There’s a film crew on board. So, Mark, tell me about what they’re hoping to show in the film.
Mark Armstrong: Well, I think the film crew has footage from 1985, and they want to show this and they wanted us to return. And Peter’s been able to bring his son, just like he was with his father. Now Peter is returning to the North Pole with his son, Alexander. And so, it’s a bit of a parallel journey.
We want to take this opportunity as we go back to the North Pole to observe how the Arctic is changing and how our planet is changing, and to use that as a platform to bring to the surface the things that we can do as the stewards of this planet.
It’s amazing how fast information travels, and I could see the pictures of you at the North Pole, yeah, ankle deep in water. That was a shocker to me too, but I guess it’s showing how different it is than it was 40 years ago.
Peter Hillary: Things are changing. Obviously, all of the satellite maps we see of the Arctic, and I think most people are familiar with those, show a shrinking ice cap, particularly over the summer months. [ER1] When you actually see it for yourself, you realize it’s not just shrinking, which it certainly is; it’s breaking up and it’s melting before our eyes.
Mark Armstrong: I think one of the things we’ve really been able to do on this voyage is see for ourselves how the North Pole looks. And we’ve had the benefit of maybe two dozen scientists on board the ship who are able to tell us about their experiences and what they’ve observed. And to teach us about all of the ways that the planet is changing, the seawater is changing.
This ship is constantly taking measurements, for sea ice thickness, for salinity, for temperature, of course. They’re doing research on the extreme environment that is the North Pole so they can compare it with other environments around the globe.
So, I think this is a good model because they have the benefit of taking these voyages into the North, following the open channels. They’re not breaking ice unless they have to. They’re trying to do this in a way that minimizes the footprint of being here, while at the same time giving people from around the world the opportunity to experience this for themselves and to connect with one another. And we need to do more of this.
Dean Regas: Wow. Well, thanks so much for taking the time to report from the Arctic on location. Mark and Peter, thanks so much.
Mark Armstrong: Thank you, Dean.
Dean Regas: One of my other slightly un-astronomical fascinations is with Antarctic exploration.
I like to curl up on the couch on a cold, wintry day with a warm beverage and read about these guys just having the most miserable time. My favorite of these books is The Worst Journey in the World by Apsley Cherry-Garrard, about the tragic Terra Nova expedition where several people lost their lives in pursuit of reaching the South Pole. [ER2] Why did they do it?
But there is no doubt that future space explorers are going to face very similar obstacles, maybe not physical stuff, but certainly mental. How would you do on a 26-month journey to Mars and back? It’s strangely enjoyable for me to size myself up compared to explorers and astronauts, even if I inevitably fall short, my imagination gets peaked.
So, who wants to go to space? Who wants to climb a mountain? Let’s go!
Looking Up with Dean Regas is a production of Cincinnati Public Radio. Kevin Reynolds and I created the podcast in 2017. Ella Rowen and Carlos Lopez Cornu produce and edit our show and lovingly suggest my recording sessions here are their test of endurance. Sometimes you can be quite cryptic with your notes.
Jenell Walton is our vice president of content, and Ronny Salerno is our digital platforms manager. Our theme song is “Possible Light” by Ziv Moran. Our social media coordinator is Hannah Pflum, and our cover art is by Nicole Tiffany.
I’m Dean Regas, keep looking up!
Music in this episode was composed by Blue Dot Sessions. Tracks include “Plate Synthesis,” “Just Below the Surface,” and “Lechuza.” Licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0 International License.
