The White House said Monday that Alex Pretti’s shooting remains under active investigation by Homeland Security and the FBI. The 37-year-old ICU nurse was shot and killed by a border patrol agent on Saturday at a protest in Minneapolis. It is the second time federal agents have killed a Minneapolis resident this month.
On Cincinnati Edition, we discuss safety concerns and legal protections during protests. Learn how to stay safe, know your rights and document incidents without impeding law enforcement.
Guests:
- Charmaine McGuffey, sheriff, Hamilton County
- Jack Greiner, attorney, Faruki PLL
A full transcript of this conversation is below.
Beginning at noon, call 513-419-7100 or email talk@wvxu.org to have your voice heard on this topic. You can catch a recorded replay at 8 p.m.
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This episode was transcribed using a combination of AI speech recognition and human editors and has been lightly edited for clarity. It may contain errors. Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.
The Trump administration has now removed Greg Bovino, the Border Patrol official who was the public face of the deportation campaign in Minnesota. This comes after the second deadly shooting there. 37 year old ICU nurse Alex Pretti was shot and killed by a border patrol agent on Saturday during a protest in Minneapolis. This is Cincinnati Edition on WVXU, I'm Lucy May. What should you know about attending an ICE protest? Joining me now to discuss safety concerns and legal protections are Hamilton County Sheriff Charmaine McGuffey and Jack Greiner, an attorney with Faruki, PLL. Thank you both for being here today. Sheriff McGuffey, you've seen the video of Alex Pretti being shot Saturday. What did you see in it as a law enforcement official?
Sheriff McGuffey: Well, certainly the video is horrific, and it leaves people not only horrified, but left with many, many, many questions. And these are people that deserve answers. There needs to be accountability. One of the things that I will not do as a law enforcement leader is make a call on a situation before an investigation is completed. I do think that due diligence of all of the people that will hopefully be involved in the investigation of this situation will bring about a public and transparent answer to what happened, and the public is going to demand that, and I think they should.
Jack, Mr. Pretti is the second person killed by federal agents in Minneapolis this month. Have you read or seen any news coverage about this that leads you to believe that he was doing anything illegal?
Jack: I have not he. I think it's been pretty well established through the video that he was holding a camera phone. He's absolutely entitled to record police activity, including arrests under the First Amendment. At least six federal circuit courts of appeals have said that it's, it's pretty well established he was carrying a weapon, but he is was permitted to do so under the laws of Minnesota. I didn't, but again, I would like a full and transparent investigation. So I don't want to say overstep, but I certainly didn't see anything in the video that looked to me like it was a violation of any law.
Sheriff McGuffey, The Washington Post looked at several videos of border patrol agents and Mr. Pretti frame by frame the post, based on those videos, determined agents removed the gun from Mr. Pretti's waistband before any shots were fired. Of course, this is still an ongoing investigation, as we've talked about. Do you have any thoughts about what authorities might be trying to determine in this whole investigation?
Sheriff McGuffey: Well, you know, in any use of force, law enforcement knows this, it can look very bad. There are people that when they watch a use of force, even if it's justified and lawfully done and tactically executed, it can have, you know chilling effects for any citizen who sees that. I will say this, that as you approach any situation regarding taking a person to the ground, putting them in handcuffs, getting them into your custody, tactics, your law enforcement tactics that you're trained to use are super important, and it's also very, very important that your demeanor is one that is a trained demeanor, which means to de escalate your job as a law enforcement officer is to de escalate, is to keep your emotions in check, which is your anger, any any outrage you might feel as a law enforcement officer. Those are things we're trained to do. It's a difficult job. It's a hard job. I've watched law enforcement officers navigate this territory decade, for decades, and we and, you know, we do wait for the investigation always. But yes, I can understand why it is so concerning when you see that video.
Yeah, well, and Sheriff, the Trump administration has focused on the fact that Mr. Pretti had this gun. Local authorities said they believe he had a permit to carry the gun. It was legally he was legally carrying. How could the presence of a gun change the law enforcement response? What does that add to the mix so to speak, Sheriff?
Sheriff McGuffey: Well, I can tell you that the current legislation in the state of Ohio is it should not change it. The legislation from the state of Ohio, which I have talked about very extensively, allows people to carry weapons, to carry them, open carry, to carry them concealed, even without a license. Apparently, this man had a license to carry, which I do encourage people to do, and it should not change law enforcement's perception what law enforcement does, because that is the legislation that has been pushed out by our legislators in the state of Ohio. I know that.
Well, let's hear from FBI Director Kash Patel on Fox News.
Sound on Tape Kash Patel: You cannot bring a firearm loaded with multiple magazines to any sort of protest that you want. It's that simple. You don't have that right to break the law and incite violence. We will, of course, always protect your first amendment speech, and if you peacefully protest, there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. But you have seen a trend here, not just in Minnesota, but across the country, in these protests turning into violent scenarios and people attacking law enforcement. That's when you go over the line, and that's when law enforcement steps in.
Jack, concealed carry is legal in Minneapolis, as we've noted, is it illegal to bring a weapon to a protest? Jack I mean, here in Ohio, we had the neo-Nazi protesters near Lincoln Heights, and some of them were open carrying no.
Jack: I mean, it's absurd. With what Kash Patel said, it's just false. It's just blatant. I mean, I don't know how else to say it is absolutely blatantly false. And I think it speaks to a larger issue that I wrote about recently in the in the Cincinnati Enquirer, which is, I think that you can make a plausible argument that what ICE is doing and what statements like Kash Patel make is domestic terrorism, because domestic terrorism is defined in the US Code as illegal acts employed to intimidate or coerce a civilian population. And the subtext of things like that from Kash Patel, are you better be careful, or it could be you. And that is intimidation of a civilian population, and it is under the definition of domestic terrorism, it is domestic terrorism.
Well, Jack these videos from Minneapolis show really charged interactions between residents and federal agents. There's shouting, sometimes there's whistleblowing. From a legal perspective, can any of that behavior be interpreted as obstructing law enforcement or impeding law enforcement activities?
Jack: Yes, I mean, it could be. It really, it's hard to answer in the abstract, because I think Sheriff McGuffey would agree with me that it's really a case by case. Kind of determination. Recording, as I said, is protected. But if you are standing in between the police officer and the perpetrator and blocking that police officer. Well, no, that's that's obstruction. But I think if you are a, you know, respectable distance back and recording, you're not obstructing. I've seen video. I saw a video of an ice agent walk up to somebody with a camera who was at least 10 or 15 feet back from the the the interaction, and just shove him over and take the camera that person was not under any scenario, obstructing justice, but, but as I say, it's a little hard to answer in the in the abstract.
Sure. Sheriff McGuffey, what do you think this, the whistleblowing, the shouting. You talked about how law enforcement officials are trained in de escalation, trained in trying to keep their own emotions about a situation in check. But can that kind of behavior, you know, impede law enforcement activities?
Sheriff McGuffey: And you know, as a law enforcement officer, we have to look at situations objectively. I don't go into a situation and try to find out who, who are the Republicans or the Democrats or the independents. What we are doing is walking into a situation. And honestly, situations can be escalated from both sides of the aisle or both sides of the of the situation. When you're blowing whistles like that, you have to understand that law enforcement officers, anybody in a uniform, that is going to escalate your heart rate. It's going to escalate your emotions. It's very difficult if someone is blowing a whistle right next to you to operate and really, quite frankly, think straight when things are happening so quickly. So I do think that when you look at the situation as a whole, I think doing the blowing the whistles and multiple people doing it as I. I've seen it pictured. I do think escalates the situation.
We're talking about your rights during a protest and how to stay safe. I want to get back to this case with Alex Pretti, the gentleman who was killed Saturday in Minneapolis. Border Patrol agents knocked down a woman, and all the reporting indicates Mr. Pretti was described as getting between them, trying to help the woman. Sheriff, I'll start with you. Could that be interfering with law enforcement?
Sheriff McGuffey: What I saw in that video is, as you said, Mr. Pretti helping up a woman who had been pretty dynamically pushed to the ground and and look, I can't speak to what agents saw prior to that, or what threat they thought this man was. But what I can say is, you know, once you are determined to put someone on the ground, what our law enforcement officers are trained to do is secure that person and de-escalate. De-escalate, make sure that the person so that we're is is not having breathing issues, etc., reducing the harm when they're in that vulnerable position. They this man, anyone who is put on the ground, who has multiple people who are maybe holding him there, grabbing on to him. That person is is very likely to experience harm, and we need to reduce that harm.
Okay, Jack, is there anything you want to add to that, just in terms of, I guess, even thoughts for citizens who are involved in these protests. They see someone go down like this woman. I think there's a human instinct to want to help. But should you be thinking, am I interfering with law enforcement in that moment?
Jack: I think it's a thought you probably should probably run through your head. I mean, I guess part of it is I don't know. I honestly don't know. As I sit here, if the woman who was pushed down was a target of the enforcement, enforcement, or just sort of collateral damage. And I think if it's the latter, then I would think that, you know, if you are trained, you know, he was a nurse to come and render assistance, you know, it's hard for me to understand how that's problematic. If that person was the subject of an attempt, you know, an arrest, then I think, yeah, you better. You better stay, stay away and stay back, at least, right?
You're listening to Cincinnati Edition on WVXU, I'm Lucy May. We're back with our conversation about legal protections during a protest and how to stay safe. My guests are Hamilton County Sheriff Charmaine McGuffey and Jack Greiner, an attorney with Faruki PLL. Sheriff McGuffey, before the break, you were talking about the kind of impact that whistleblowing and that sort of thing can have just the human impact on law enforcement officers. What about taking video? Jack had mentioned that's legal. There are legal protections, constitutional protections for that, as long as you're not standing in between a person who is the target of the law enforcement and law enforcement, but when there are people standing all around and taking video from multiple perspectives? Possibly is that. Does that have an impact on law enforcement?
Sheriff McGuffey: Law enforcement is well used to people videotaping their activities. We all wear body cams, and we have for many years now, law enforcement is trained to ignore someone who is perhaps taking a video of an arrest, because honestly, your focus, as I just said, is to tactically affect what you need to affect with solid harm reduction. You know, actions and people videotape you all the time. Everybody knows that. You know, being angry and and, you know, literally knocking phones out of people's hands and things like that also escalates the situation unnecessarily. And that is exactly what law enforcement has learned over the decades. We're going to wear our body cams. We're going to be transparent, and if transparency is we also view a video that somebody shot with their phone. Well, you know what? We're going to be above board and do that, and we're going to have a full investigation Jack.
How can people, if they feel the need to take video of a situation that's happening. They're in a protest, or they're seeing some kind of law enforcement encounter. You mentioned that there's this constitutionally protected right, but what's your advice for how people can do that and stay safe and do it legally? I mean, whether they're citizens or even journalists in those situations.
Jack: Well, some things are pretty easy. You know, police will come upon a crime scene occasionally and put yellow tape around for evidence preservation or privacy issues with victims, don't cross the yellow tape. I mean, whether you're a journalist or a citizen, I've told my journalist that time and time again, do not cross.
You advise a lot of journalists as an attorney.
Jack: Don't cross the yellow tape. So that one's, I think, a pretty clear cut. I think that, you know, you get into issues about how far back do you need to be to allow law enforcement to do their job. You know, I would say that if, if a police officer asks you to just move a few feedback, move a few feedback, if the police officer tells you you've got to go over somewhere where you can't see then I think you have you you can have a discussion. Bear in mind. You know that the officers in a high stress situation, so just keep that in mind. I think you know keeping yourself safe is is a key element. I mean, I don't I would hate to see someone based on anything I've said, get themselves injured or killed because of that. So I think at the end of the day, if there is simply no other choice, you probably should turn your phone off and put it away. But I do think you ought to try to make a record as much as you can. So you might even indicate, you know, talk into the phone and indicate I'm, I estimate I'm 20 feet away from the interaction. So that's on your phone, so that if that gets disputed, if a police officer comes and engages you, you can keep your phone going and have that conversation and just, you know, but again, if it's clear that you're about to get harmed, I would say, turn the phone off, but hopefully you've made a record up until that point.
What about staying on the sidewalk versus the street? Public property versus private property? I mean, there have been some large protests that have shut down traffic and that sort of thing. What are your rights there?
Jack: You don't have a right to trespass, so you don't have a right to go into private property that's not open to the public. You know the for example, I thought it was interesting the protest in the church in Minneapolis. I don't think those people were trespassing because that was open to the public. In fact, some of the people said they had been in. Invited into the church. I you know, I don't know that they did anything wrong, even at the beginning of their protest, but I do think when they were told to leave, it was private property. I think at that point, they've probably crossed the line, and they probably need to get out of there. But I don't it would not be accurate to say those people were trespassing. I don't think they were, but you can't go on. But you know, if you're not invited or private property is not open to the public, you should stay off public property. I don't think you should block traffic. I just don't think that's effective in the big picture. You know, I think my sense would be to try to stay within the bounds of the law as much as possible. And you know, you be better than them. Now, you know, there's other times. I'm certainly not criticizing the Selma march, for example, but I think, I think they had a permit to parade. So, you know, there's other issues that come into play, but I think things like blocking, blocking traffic, and that sort of thing, or not just, it's just, to me, it's not a very smart thing. to do,
Yeah, does that become a bigger concern for law enforcement? When there's interference with traffic and people getting in the street and that sort of thing?
Sheriff McGuffey: Yes, it certainly does. It raises our concern, because we do have the safety of the citizens in mind first and foremost. And you know, look, we've been through some protests here in Cincinnati, right? And I was involved in observing those actions and so forth of officers, and we do encourage people to stay out of the street. And we have had the certain city ambassadors who have come to help us do that during protest. I think we anticipate that we work in those parameters, and it's one of the ways that we create law and order for both sides of the issue.
We do have a caller on the line. Hi, Debbie, thank you so much for calling. What's your question or comment?
Caller: Yeah, I am curious as to when it might be necessary to cross that line between what is advised legally and what is necessary morally to protect our democracy and stand up against these people that call themselves law enforcement officers, but we don't even know that they're wearing masks. We don't even know who they are actually there's no identification. Our legislators are not doing anything. Democrats hands are tied. So when does the citizen actually cover that line and stop Gestapo type action that's actually occurring?
Thank you, Debbie. And with the masks, I assume Debbie's talking about ICE agents there and other federal agents who have been described as wearing masks and not being identified. Jack your thoughts on that?
Jack: I totally understand where Debbie's coming from, but I think the best thing a citizen can do is record and document what's going on. And I think, you know, we all kind of need to stay in our lane. And so I don't think that it would be I don't think it's a good idea to interfere even with what appears to be abuse by by ice. I think you need to record it and document it and trust the process.
Anything you want to add to that sheriff?
Sheriff McGuffey: Yes, I'll say that, you know, we are doing what we can do right now. We're coming on this radio show. You know, we're answering hard questions as the people that represent law and order the sheriff's office in Hamilton County. We're we're working to keep those lines of communication open. I work locally with the FBI. We work locally with Homeland Security, and we have for years, those communication lines need to stay open. We need to have robust conversations, and we are doing everything we can do to mitigate any kind of lawlessness.
Thank you for that call Debbie. We sure appreciate it. We have an email from Claire who writes: I'd like the panelists to discuss what risks and rights individuals have if an unidentified federal agent approaches a citizen aggressively and the person has no way to distinguish between a federal agent versus kidnapper. Does the person have a right to defend themselves absent identification and or judicial warrant in their car or home? Does that include the right to defend themselves under the castle doctrine with a gun they are permitted to own? So there's a lot there. I don't know who has thoughts on that first.
Sheriff McGuffey: Well, what I'll say? My advice is this, look at your surroundings. Understand what's going on. Educate yourself. I mean, if somebody's approaching you that is an ice agent, or says they're an ice agent, there will likely have been. And some kind of communication about them being in the area. There will be others dressed like them. There will likely be other ways that you're looking at a particular uniform to try and identify and quite frankly, you know if you are, if you are in doubt, I think that you start working on your own personal safety. Should you attack the person? Should you? Should you brandish a weapon? I don't agree with that, because I think it escalates. I think your job in that situation is to de escalate and continue to ask for identification.
Okay, well, Sheriff, you know, anti-ICE protests are now happening all over the country, including Greater Cincinnati. What would your advice be if people do want to participate, how can they stay safe? And what role do you think protesters play in de-escalation?
Sheriff McGuffey: I think the things we've talked about here are very prudent advice for protesters. You have every right to peacefully protest. We know that, and we've done it, and we've experienced it here in Cincinnati, I am encouraging protesters to be mindful not to escalate. I know that people are angry. I know emotions are over the top, but look, your safety is paramount, and as the Sheriff of Hamilton County, that is my goal and focus, which is law and order. If you have complaints, if you have incidences that you've witnessed, that you'd like to report, we certainly will take that report. We will act on any of those. But honestly, as a protester, listen, this is these are high times, and people need to be aware of that. You want to go home to your kids, you can help us a lot when you stay alive and when you're not getting severely injured in these protests. We need everybody that wants to express their opinion, and we need everybody to stay healthy that wants to do that.
Republican Minnesota State Representative Nolan West spoke this morning on on Morning Edition. In expressing dismay over these killings and the immediate response of the White House, he also said there's more Governor Walz in Minnesota could have done to work with federal agents.
Sound on Tape State Rep West: One of the things that caused this, outside of just having federal agents here, is local law enforcement, State Patrol were pulled from providing protection for them, which created a lot of these opportunities for ICE agents who are not properly trained for this kind of stuff, to engage with protesters and that, you know, that helped create the situation. So what I would like to see is, okay, you have to get less ICE agents on the street like that's his position he wants. Well, let's make sure we, the federal government, takes some out, and they can do that if you help them enforce a more targeted approach, and that's what I would like to see.
Sound on Tape Steve Inskeep Morning Edition Host: We'll just note for the record, we've heard differing statements about whether police have said they're withdrawing from DHS or whether DHS isn't giving them information. But in any case, you are correct that in this incident and so many others, it's DHS, people not trained for crowd control, who are doing crowd control, and a little more.
Sheriff McGuffey, does local law enforcement have a duty, in your view, to aid federal agents in any way with deportation efforts for the sake of safety in the community?
Sheriff McGuffey: Law enforcement has a duty to maintain law and order, and in particular in Hamilton County, which I can speak to, we have been at the table with our federal partners. We have been at the table. I've been at the table with Homeland Security. We work very well together. We are embedded with the US marshals. I mean, we know each other. I know the supervisors. I know the people on this local level. This type of talk and accusations is coming from higher up who are not engaged in this region, who are not engaged in these conversations. When we have the information, when we're able to talk across the table, we are able to plan, look my officers, when the gangs were burglarizing homes and so forth. It was, it was my deputies that broke that story and helped track down illegal immigrants who were who were violating the law. They were criminals, and we helped to get them that. That's because we worked with our local people. I would just encourage people who want to escalate this conversation at a different level to realize that, listen, on the local level, we are working very solidly together. Don't come into our county and say, Hey, where are you guys? Everybody's struggling with personnel. I have to man three shifts, right? Y'all are. Uh, increasing our workload exponentially. So let's have a conversation about what's going to go on, and let's be mindful of the fact that the public needs to know ahead of time.
I have been talking with Hamilton County Sheriff Charmaine McGuffey and Jack Greiner, an attorney with Faruki PLL, thank you both so much for your time today and for this important conversation.