Is it time for Cincinnati to change how the city hires police and fire chiefs?
Former Vice Mayor Christopher Smitherman argues it is.
He’s pushing for a charter amendment that would take hiring and firing authority away from the city manager and give it to Cincinnati City Council.
On Cincinnati Edition, we talk about the city’s recent track record with its chiefs, the proposed charter amendment, and what it will take to get the measure on the November ballot.
Guests:
- Christopher Smitherman, former Cincinnati Vice Mayor
- Cincinnati Councilmember Scotty Johnson, chairman, Public Safety & Quality of Life Committee
Beginning at noon, call 513-419-7100 or email talk@wvxu.org to have your voice heard on this topic. You can catch a recorded replay at 8 p.m.
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Is it time for Cincinnati to change how the city hires police and police and fire chiefs? Former Vice Mayor Christopher Smitherman argues it is. He's pushing for a charter amendment that would take hiring and firing authority away from the city manager. This is Cincinnati Edition on WVXU. I'm Lucy May. Christopher Smitherman joins me now to talk about that proposal. Also here is Cincinnati City Councilmember Scottie Johnson, who is chairman of council's Public Safety and Quality of Life Committee. Thank you both, so much for being here.
Christopher, Cincinnati's charter gives the city manager the authority to hire and dismiss the city's police and fire chiefs. What do you think is wrong with that system?
Smitherman: It all started with a group of citizens when Chief Washington, our fire chief, was terminated, and we've been watching that litigation over the last three years, depositions have happened with the city manager, and it's pretty clear that there wasn't cause for the termination. I serve on a lot of boards, I serve currently at the pleasure of the governor on a state board, we have similar situations at that level, and always the board of trustees, when you have high executives, weigh in on those types of terminations, and what it does is it helps mitigate litigation, and so from what I'm seeing, we don't know whether that's going to happen. The city has appealed to a three-panel court, now that ruling will come in June. We believe that the, that the chief will win. It will go back to the lower court, and now there's going to be a discussion about settlement, or a discussion about a trial. This is going to cost the citizens of Cincinnati millions of dollars, is my speculation. What is that? I'm saying 4 million, 5 million, but since then, now the police chief has now been terminated.
Let me interrupt you just for a second to get back to the fire chief, because I think the original accusation was that the fire department was kind of a boys club, there was some sexual harassment for female firefighters. Council member Johnson, did you think there was cause to fire the fire chief?
Johnson: Well, I mean, I'm not sure. It's still in litigation, so I'm not sure exactly what the reason was for that termination. But having said that, though, I don't believe that politicians having to be one, and then eight others that sit on that day, US with me. I don't believe people believe they know what a fire chief and a police chief do on a daily basis, but I don't think they really do. I don't think we need more politics in those amazing jobs, police chief and the fire chief, we don't need politicians deciding it would be very difficult to hire a quality police chief or fire chief here in Cincinnati if they had to make sure that nine other people, including the mayor and the manager, were happy with them, so that I think that would be a tall task for anybody.
Yeah, I'm sorry. I want to come back to you, Christopher, because you were.. I know you weren't even finished making your point there yet.
Smitherman: Very important for me to say, because I know Chief Washington is listening. The city manager was deposed and asked those questions directly, and under deposition she said she has no knowledge of any sexual misconduct by the chief. Number one, number two, when she was asked how many fire personnel were female under deposition, she had no idea. So this case, this, the lower court, Lucy May has already said you brought me a blank sheet of paper, I can't find cause of why you've terminated the fire chief, and this is important because he's applying for jobs all over the country, and he's been unable to get gainful employment because of what you just said. There has never been a situation of sexual, sexual misconduct, and that is what is so alarming by this conversation. If there was a check and balance, if this had to go into executive session before the board of directors, which are the members of council, this would have been vetted out, and we would never be in the position that we're in. So things are already political. It's just I feel like there needs to be another position here, because Chief Washington has paid a tremendous cost, and now we know under deposition nothing ever has happened.
Okay, well, and I'm sorry, I didn't mean to imply that he was accused directly. My recollection was that there was this accusation that there was a culture, kind of a boys club culture. And that female firefighters were uncomfortable in that culture, felt like there was not maybe sexual misconduct, but sexual harassment. You're saying you just don't think any of that was there?
Smitherman: No, I, having served as the chair of law and public safety, fire and police need to grow and continue to grow in this space. There's no question about that, but Chief Washington had only been the fire chief a couple of years, so to lay this at his feet is just not acceptable. But when you read the articles, Lucy May, it makes you think sexual misconduct in every interview he has had since this point during the interview process. This is what they bring forward. So, so I believe that what's going to happen here is the city is ultimately going to settle, and this is why we brought this petition forward, saying, "Hey, we need the board of directors involved here to say what happens with this with the two most highest executives in the city, and I want to close by saying 65% of the budget is police and fire, so we're talking 200 million plus dollars here, and there are small cap companies that don't have $200 million of revenue. So this is a significant conversation about these two executives that have pushed both departments kind of into peril.
And you started to say before I interrupted you that now the city manager has fired former police chief Fiji, and your proposal would deal with both fire, the fire chief and the police chief. Can you explain exactly how the charter amendment you're proposing would change the system?
Smitherman: So anytime the city manager decided that they wanted, or he or she wanted to terminate, it's very similar to how the mayor would terminate the city manager, the manager, the mayor would say, "I'm submitting the manager to the council for that decision. The mayor doesn't have the power to fire the chief operating officer without the board of directors. I believe that the police chief and the fire chief are at such a high level that they deserve the same level of consideration and protection, because they're just two departments that make up 65 or 70% of the entire budget, but also just because safety is such an important part of citizens' desire.
And Councilman Johnson, as I mentioned, you're chair of council's public safety committee, you're also a former Cincinnati police officer, so you've got a lot of perspective on this, but you, it sounds like you don't think this change is a good idea.
Johnson: No, because as the issue would become also first and foremost, I still think that, as Christopher pointed out, there's already politics in it. There's politics in everything, unfortunately, in America, almost. But I think, unfortunately, it would - we would take a huge step backwards from where we've gained in the last 25 years with the collaborative agreement. Also, issue 525 years ago allowed us to be able to go outside the city of Cincinnati and hire police chiefs and fire chiefs. With this, I think we're taking a step backwards, and we don't want any chief. And let me just say, for the record, Chief Washington, from what I saw, he was a phenomenal guy. He's a phenomenal guy. I know him personally, an unbelievable guy. The bottom line, though, is I think that would hinder the process of getting the top quality people in here from around the nation to say, okay, now I gotta make sure city council's okay with me, although Christopher knows that that's part of that level of service to the city of Cincinnati, but I don't, I just think it brings too many people into the pot, and most politicians don't have a clue what the fire to police chief do. Allegations are something that have to be addressed, but honestly, most people that have even served on council or serving on council now, if you ask them what the police or fire chief do on a daily basis, they would be inaccurate in their answer. I have the advantage because I served as two police chiefs, admin to police chiefs to admin, so I know what the police chief does on a daily basis. Some police officers, some firefighters don't know what a police chief or fire chief do on a daily basis, so I just think there's too many hands in the pot, and I think it would be a step backwards for where we are in the city of Cincinnati.
Smitherman: I just want to add a couple of points here. One, I have tremendous respect for for Council Member Scotty Johnson and his service. Thank you for your service as a police officer. When we move from a. City manager form of government to a strong mayor form of government. This is one of the reasons we're in limbo, meaning if we had a strong city manager form of government, I don't think we would be having this discussion. So, what has happened here is we either need to move to a very strong mayor or go back to a city manager form of government, and it's in that pocket that I think we need the board of directors to weigh in. Unfortunately, Lucy May, this is going to cost us 10s of millions of dollars by the time this litigation is over. We get to settlement and punitive damages for the for the police chief and the fire chief. Something is broken. I don't think we can say we have a payout of 7 million or 5 million or $10 million and something isn't broken. I'm coming forward and just saying the nine members of council, if they were a part of this process, the city manager would not have been able to do the termination, because I believe that Council Member Scotty Johnson, who is a former police officer would have said, "Is there anything in the file that has brought us to this point to terminate for cause? There isn't termination for cause. That's why I would want a Scottie Johnson sitting at the table asking that question in executive session. I don't think we would be here.
Johnson: If you could find nine, you come back, like I wrote that in there. You can find nine that you're right, but I just think that you know, I just.. here's the thing. Politicians, I happen to be one now. Politicians, unfortunately, and Christopher can attest to this, depending on the room and the arena. Too many politicians go with the win, so facts sometimes are irrelevant because their politicians are playing the room. I try my best not to play a room. I'm straightforward. I'm who I am. I can't guarantee that the next group coming in after I'm term limited after this next term, when politics, too many politicians are playing the room, which they do. I don't think we get a genuine perspective, even with the facts that Christopher has pointed out, with what has happened with Chief Washington, because politicians move with the wind, so I just think there are too many. Once again, I will repeat, I think it's a step backwards from all the work that we've done for 25 years getting to this point, and I also think that we miss it as pilot. If you have politicians making decisions when it comes to personnel matters, Christopher also knows that council should not be intervening at this point on on on personnel matters in the city of Cincinnati, it is against the charter. That's why it would take a charter change, but I think it's important to know that, as I said before, there are too many politicians that don't know what happens at that level on a daily basis, and it would add fuel to the fire.
Smitherman: Here's what's scary Lucy May is our current mayor, in all due respect, is involved with this process, meaning the city manager reports to the mayor, right, and the only person who can serve the city manager to council is the mayor. So you have a person, a politician, who can put undue pressure on that executive to make decisions outside of the context of the public, and I'm sharing with you, as a person who has served as the vice mayor, served on every committee the city has had, that the reality is no mayor would want this change, because they're able to influence the process without the city and the public knowing what's going on. That's what's so dangerous about, I think, the current system. I want to pull the mayor out and put it, put him, put that mayor, male or female, chairing the nine members of council with a public discussion or executive discussion, executive session on why you're recommending the termination of these two professionals. And right now, I just think we need more oversight and intervention here.
You're listening to Cincinnati Edition on WVXU. I'm Lucy May. We're back with our conversation about the way the city of Cincinnati hires and fires its police and fire chiefs. My guests are Cincinnati City Council member Scotty Johnson and former Cincinnati Vice Mayor Christopher Smitherman.
We did get an email from a listener, and this relates, I think, to a point you were talking about earlier Christopher. Steve from Oakley writes, "No, it is not time for the hiring and firing of the police and fire chief to be delegated to council, even with the current chaos. Keep in mind the current council's been stunningly silent on both these firings. It's time to return to a strong city manager, professionally run administration as envisioned by Murray Seasongood and the reformers that rescued the city from being one of the worst to one of the best. With the emergence of the strong mayor format, the city manager position has become increasingly politicized. Council hiring, firing the chief positions will take that politicization to a higher level. Simply a bad idea that will reduce the process to have more in common with herding cats than governance." So, we heard what Christopher had to say about that, that we don't have this very strong city manager form of government that we once did in Cincinnati. Council Member Johnson, what do you think about that? We do have a stronger mayor than we used to. What impact do you think that's having on all these things?
Johnson: Well for the record, Miss Long, right now our present city manager is the one of only two professional city managers that we've had. Milton Dohoney was the other recently. Now, I can't go back before when I was in high school and all of that, but Milton Dohoney and Sheryl Long, or two that were, have I think it's ICM something, where they are actually certified, certified through the certified throughout the nation. I don't want to take these on these unfortunate, chaotic situations, and make it all that is happening in Cincinnati, and with the city manager. It's unfortunate we're here for, because it doesn't help the city. It does look like we're disjointed, and we're out of control, but honestly, I'd still reiterate. If you bring nine other people in that are reading headlines or waiting to see what the temperature in the room is, I gotta agree, we're gonna, it's gonna continue to cause more chaos. Having said that, having talked to two former police chiefs when this came up, neither one of them, both of them said they would not want to have to worry about council deciding their fate either. I think it would limit that amazing talent that is out there that could come to Cincinnati and serve us, but I don't, of course, there's no perfect system. We can all work for process improvement on all matters, but I just think there would be far too many hands in the pot, and I don't think that this would be a positive move for the city of Cincinnati.
What do you think about the job city manager Sheryl Long's been doing, other than these two situations? Because these have been very high profile, they've caused a lot of conversation and controversy in a lot of parts of the city. What do you think about her job?
Johnson: Otherwise, I think Miss Long has done everything that she could possibly can do based on what we've provided for her to get done, I think we've got an amazing collaborative effort at City Hall at this point. When it comes to council in the administration, the department heads that I work with every day are amazing people. So, I would say Miss Long has done an outstanding job, and I know there are those that disagree with me at that, but Miss Long has done an outstanding job, and she's continuously looking to improve what she can do better to make sure Cincinnati is the place it should be.
Smitherman: I want to just say that Chief Theetge, who is a woman, and Chief Washington, who is a man, both have endorsed the petition publicly, and said that this would be a better process for them. Understand that these professionals, where we are now, this is devastating to their career, because this is a public discussion that we're having about human beings who have given 30 to 35 years of their life of public service, so I want to share with you what the board of directors, this move, and this petition would do, would also insulate those professionals, so that there are another set of eyes on here, so that you're not ruining the reputation of these professionals, because they want to leave here and they want to work somewhere else. So this is not their last stop. This is a stop of many, and so even even Chief Theetge could go on and work somewhere else, but these kinds of things, where you have her on administrative leave for almost eight or nine months, where it was unclear why you were terminating her, in the same thing with Chief Washington, the fire chief, it has caused a situation where professionally they are being damaged. So, you know, I respectfully disagree with Council Member Scotty Johnson here, because the mayor currently is involved. We just can't see the involvement, and what this does is bring it into the light. It doesn't make it more political, it already is political, and I think that's why Chief Washington and Chief Theetge, and this is the Neville family, meaning this is the family that has given over 200 years of service in peace as peace officers, and the entire family is saying yes, we would like to see this change.
Christopher, you suggested I talk with Hope Dudley to get her perspective on this. For our listeners who might not know, her son was killed in a drive-by shooting in 2007. Nobody's ever been charged in his death. Here's how she said she thinks the city's police chief should be chosen.
Dudley: I really think that they should be elected or appointed by the city council, and not just one or two people that can hire and firearm. We need more voices to say who we need running our city or our fire department, and one or two voices is not enough.
Councilmember Johnson, I know you told me to call you Scotty. I'm having trouble doing it, so I'm sorry about that. But what do you think about direct election of the chief? I mean, there are some places in the US who do that. The Hamilton County sheriff is elected. What do you think about that idea?
Johnson: You know, that's, that's an interesting, very interesting. Miss Dudley is an amazing person. I love her. That's, that's a very interesting concept. I don't know to elect the police chief. I know the sheriff is elected, and maybe I'm just old school because you're used to electing a sheriff, you know. I don't know, but that's, that's an interesting concept. I have to process that, because the first time I've heard of a police chief being elected, so I have to process that.
Did you consider that at all, Christopher, when you were putting this proposal together?
Smitherman: No, no, but I understand the train of thought, because bringing the nine members of council into the process theoretically says the people now are being represented, they're bringing those politicians that the people have elected to make the decision, so it makes sense. I'm saying anything that we're doing now to me is better. This litigation is going to cost taxpayers millions of dollars, and just having one person there making that decision, I think, is not a good process. So that's why we've put it forth. People can sign the petition at Jim and Jack's as one location on the west side of town. You have to be a citizen of Cincinnati, and to circulate, you have to be a citizen of Cincinnati.
Well, I also asked Hope Dudley whether she thinks a different police chief could have made a difference in her son's case, and here's what she had to say about that.
Dudley: The fact that we have 500 unsolved homicides in the city of Cincinnati, we need to be able to invite these other police departments or agencies in to look at some of our cold cases, but we don't always invite people in. I was told we don't just give our cases away, it's not giving your cases away, it's giving them fresh eyes.
Of course, Theresa Theetge was not police chief when Hope Dudley's son was was killed. Councilmember Johnson, you're a former police officer. Do you think the chief has a big say on how cases like cold cases are investigated, whether other agencies should get involved?
Johnson: Here's the thing, we all have a role to play in public safety. I said it today on the floor of council when the summer safety plan was presented, we all have a role to play in that the police chief, unfortunately, cannot control if somebody has mined up, has made up their mind to take another human being's life. There was only one time in 33 years when I was working, doing some work with the Intelligence Unit, through a wiretap, we found out that there may be a homicide, and we were able to make an arrest and prevent that. We live in a society, unfortunately, that does not do well when it comes to come. Conflict, but you cannot make police officers or a police chief responsible, unfortunately, for what we're seeing across this nation. We just can't, you just can't do it.
Smitherman: I think maybe what Hope Dudley is getting at, and I have tremendous respect for her, is she's looking for our governor, who has said, I'd like to help. I'd like to bring in our team, and we, they help Toledo, Columbus, Dayton, and they're not getting that level of cooperation from from her perspective. So, there are a lot of moms out there, you know. I respectfully say that again. Council Member Scotty Johnson is very sensitive to this, and I think what Hope is looking, Hope Dudley is looking for is more help to solve these cases for these moms and dads and grandmothers, and she, it doesn't matter to her whether they're coming from Governor Mike DeWine, who's a Republican, are coming from Scottie Johnson, who is a Democrat, they just want the cases solved, and they want the manpower or person power in order to get that done.
Johnson: But unfortunately, very quickly, you know, we've got a shortage across the nation with law enforcement, just not Cincinnati, but Highway Patrol, all of those are unfortunately now fighting, trying to get their numbers up. So, I do, I respect Miss Dudley, is amazing, and I hear what you're saying, Christopher, but I think you have to also make sure that those in the city that know the city are on boots on the ground to make that happen. What's happening, unfortunately, is people are not coming forward with information. People know what's happening in the streets, people know who shot somebody, and it takes, as I said, we all have a role to play in assisting on making sure Cincinnati is safe, people are not stepping up telling what they see, we say if you see something, say something, and people are just not doing that, and I don't think you can put that on the highway patrol, Mike DeWine, or that, or any police agency. People have to be involved in their own safety.
We've been talking a lot about hiring, but I think you know, as you brought up, Christopher, what a lot of people are concerned about is the way these chiefs have been fired, the way Teresa Theetge was fired as police chief. And do I understand correctly that your proposal would deal with that in the same way that city council would be responsible not just for hiring but also for firing a police or fire chief?
Smitherman: That is correct. And remember, the city manager would bring those candidates, the professional manager would bring those candidates, they wouldn't be driven by the council. It's a check and balance here, just to say, look, you want to fire the police chief or the fire chief, we can go into executive session and have a discussion about why you want to do that, and again, I believe that if Council Member Scotty Johnson was a part of that process, we wouldn't be here, because he just would have asked some simple questions. What is in the file that has you come to this juncture? The taxpayers, Lucy May, are going to be the ones paying ultimately this bill. The last thing I want to say is Chief Washington, again, who was listening, his case has nothing to do with sexual misconduct. I have to say that a lot, because any place he has interviewed, they've asked him a similar question, and that's the problem here. We have these really top professionals, and when they do these kinds of terminations, whether it's Chief Theetge or Chief Washington, this will ruin their career forever. We've got to be careful here.
I've been talking with Cincinnati City Council member Scotty Johnson and former Cincinnati Vice Mayor Christopher Smitherman.